I am literally exhausted by this conversation. Mostly because it is 1 AM in the morning and I had two beers with my brother (who is also going to seminary). But also because this question, this “issue” has been a thorn in my side, for years, but in particular this semester. It just causes one too many emotions. And in the end, both sides are able to explain quite eloquently (and without vile, psyche!) “the correct” position based on the scriptures. So let’s just say we’re tied.
And get back to more important questions like why there are still no hotels on the moon.
What I can tell you is some of my experience.
My parents are a lovely mixture of egalitarian and complimentarianism. My dad never lets my mom mow the lawn, mostly because I think he secretly loves the smell of cut grass mixed with gasoline. But they share other duties, like cooking or doing the dishes, etc. I think it works out quite lovely actually. I grew up going to church, but have never had a woman pastor, sure lots of Sunday school teachers, and reading books about women missionaries and who would preach and baptize overseas (which is ironic and racist, because it is “good enough” for “those people” but not for us to have women in leadership). I went to Bible college where I felt affirmed as a woman studying theology, but it was lonely. Now I am attending a seminary with affirming professors who ask me to speak up in class. But again, it is lonely. The 3 professors I have are males; the majority of students in classes are married men. And the only other single woman entering in seminary this year isn’t even in the same program!
In the end, I claim both egalitarianism and complementarianism.
Why not? Why do we always have to say one or the other? That’s stupid.
I think it is impossible to be in real life friendships/relationships/what-have-you without both.
I believe in and hope for equality. And I long for a day when power does not corrupt. But I would hope that relationships are also about give and take. I always come back to interlocking fingers while holding hands with another person; the weakest parts of your hand (all that squishy stuff in between) are covered by the strongest parts of my hand, the fingers. This is what I can offer you, it is quite a basic human transaction really. I need you and you need me.
In the end, I claim both egalitarianism and complementarianism.
Why not? Why do we always have to say one or the other? That’s stupid.
I think it is impossible to be in real life friendships/relationships/what-have-you without both.
I believe in and hope for equality. And I long for a day when power does not corrupt. But I would hope that relationships are also about give and take. I always come back to interlocking fingers while holding hands with another person; the weakest parts of your hand (all that squishy stuff in between) are covered by the strongest parts of my hand, the fingers. This is what I can offer you, it is quite a basic human transaction really. I need you and you need me.
Currently I am working on a paper for my Christian History and Theology class (which is due on Monday, adding to the exhaustion), on the virgin martyrs. These were a small group of women, who chose Christ and death over the socially and culturally demanded marriage. They were tortured and threatened with sexual assault, often dying in the most inhumane ways; one woman even had her breasts sliced off. At the heart of this persecution, was the body. These women rejected the very thing which defined their “femaleness”, marriage and child-birth; it was a “renunciation of social insignificance”. For a time their stories were the precedent for women to carry on in ministry and leadership, baptizing and preaching. Eventually they were first women to be venerated as saints, standing alongside Mary, the Mother of Jesus. However, along came the Church Fathers and Christian society a-la Constantine (who actually didn’t establish Christianity as the state religion, that was his grandson), exerting culturally-based misogyny and control over the new virgins. The only way they could describe these martyrs’ bravery and self-control was to say that they became men, that they literally took on the male form; because those kinds of qualities could not exist within women (and there are so many cultural reasons why this was a NORMAL concept to have of women, that to call them misogynists is really to say, they were just men of their time, unfortunately).
Now today feminists see the virgin martyrs as symbols of liberation from man’s control of women’s bodies. These women were subversive and able to overthrow the dominant culture by claiming virginity, thus claiming their sexuality, thus claiming their identity. But the tension lies in the fact that we simply cannot read twentieth century ideology into the 3rd. It is absurd and just terrible exegesis, even I know that as a woman.
What has been the most difficult for me in this project and this discussion on the blog is that while I agree with Duncan and Danielle about Jesus loving women too, it seems that the following apostolic tradition did not love women like Jesus did, that there was a reversion back to the maintenance of the dominant cultural norms surrounding the religious and civic roles. And it is excruciatingly depressing. Jerome, Tertullian, Augustine and all the other Fathers wrote brilliant theologically treatises. I cannot deny that. But then to read their views on women, and women’s bodies in particular, the loneliness creeps back and screams in my ear: “there is no historical precedent for women to have power!” I just wanted to excommunicate them all and when I get to heaven I will punch them all in their faces.
But I can’t.
And I won’t.
Because 2 Corinthians 12.
At the heart of what I believe about Jesus, the Incarnation, redemption and how we are to live our lives as Christians, is not of power but of weakness; of foolishness instead of wisdom.
The things men have deemed ugly and contemptuous is that which brings glory to God.
What has been the most difficult for me in this project and this discussion on the blog is that while I agree with Duncan and Danielle about Jesus loving women too, it seems that the following apostolic tradition did not love women like Jesus did, that there was a reversion back to the maintenance of the dominant cultural norms surrounding the religious and civic roles. And it is excruciatingly depressing. Jerome, Tertullian, Augustine and all the other Fathers wrote brilliant theologically treatises. I cannot deny that. But then to read their views on women, and women’s bodies in particular, the loneliness creeps back and screams in my ear: “there is no historical precedent for women to have power!” I just wanted to excommunicate them all and when I get to heaven I will punch them all in their faces.
But I can’t.
And I won’t.
Because 2 Corinthians 12.
At the heart of what I believe about Jesus, the Incarnation, redemption and how we are to live our lives as Christians, is not of power but of weakness; of foolishness instead of wisdom.
The things men have deemed ugly and contemptuous is that which brings glory to God.
The virgin martyrs were subversive because the Gospel is subversive.
Grace is sufficient for us, for Christ’s power is complete in weakness.
When I am weak, then I am strong.
And if I am weak because I am a woman, then I am strong because of Christ. And so are you.
Grace is sufficient for us, for Christ’s power is complete in weakness.
When I am weak, then I am strong.
And if I am weak because I am a woman, then I am strong because of Christ. And so are you.
By Caitlin Kellog
Brilliance. Thanks Caitlin.
ReplyDeleteBoth you and Gay Lynn attempt to sidestep the conflict by using the definition of the words rather than dealing with the theological positions. I agree with and affirm what you have said and yet am mildly frustrated by the refusal to address the two positions. I am not happy calling it a tie, or putting off face punching until heaven. So I put it to you: How do I help? How do I make a difference? How can I empower you? And how do you think the Apostle Paul would feel about you being in seminary? (I think he would be pumped by the way)
ReplyDeleteMy initial response is defensive. Don't force me into a box I don't want to go in. To me these positions are just ways to get out of being in relationships with other people who are different than you. So I sidestep.
ReplyDeleteAnd honestly I don't care what Paul would say about me being in seminary.
But I need to finish writing this paper and then I'll reflect more on it.
Your are brave for your writings. May the Holy Spirit and God's Word continue to direct you despite others. I would like to read your paper when it is finished. Romans 15:13
ReplyDeletejjt.fvu@gmail.com
Caitlin,
ReplyDeleteYour evaluation that theological positions break or eliminate relationship is interesting. And possibly accurate. I can certainly relate to sidestepping uncomfortable issues in various settings (for my part primarily out of fear of rejection). It was my hope that this would be a safe place but I suppose it is the internet and thus very unsafe and far too permanent... It was not my/our goal to force you into a box but to have some frank and pointed conversation about a difficult topic. I am deeply appreciative of both your insight and contribution. I hope your paper goes well.
I think part of what makes these things "box like" and uncomfortable is that the dialog tends to surround a binary choice: either complementarian or egalitarian.
ReplyDeleteI don't know enough about the details and (very long) background of this debate to contribute much. However, my sense is that Caitlin's "sidestepping", which Duncan affirms, could be a clue that annunciating third (or even a fourth and fifth) option might better than "choosing sides" in the current debate.
Caitlin,
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, I miss talking with you on a regular basis. You were a valued member of my Columbia community and I thank God for you.
Thank you for your insight. I was raised by parents who would resonate with the "egalitarian" (sorry for the box) point of view, and my local church that holds a complementary point of view and reserves the roles of Lead Pastor and Elder for godly men. While I don't claim to feel as deeply as you do about this topic, I do feel "stuck in the middle" too. I deeply love both my family and my church and I won't forsake either over this topic. I appreciate you not wanting to put a theological definition on your point of view - while I haven't voiced it like that before, I think that is in essence how I have responded to this topic too.
Thanks!
Duncan,
ReplyDeleteI asked for this passage to be talked about basically because I wanted to know how egalitarians understand this passage, because it seems quite clear what the apostolic position is on it.
Gay-Lynn commented on an earlier post of mine that "Paul, writing within a particular time frame and cultural context, is encouraging Timothy to teach his church members to be gracious, merciful and peace abiding."
I agree that Paul wrote within a particular time frame and cultural context. I think elements of this passage is culturally bound (e.g.v.9 - the point is decency not what constitutes decency - it is different for Ephesus-then and North America-now). But I don't think we can limit his view on women as teachers/elders because of his historical/cultural context, because the reason he gives is transcultural. That is, he goes back to Adam and Eve - not some female teachers in Ephesus - for the thrust of his point. So the argument that his point in v.11-12 is culturally bound doesn't make sense to me.
I'm not looking to convince anyone of the complentarian point of view. I'm not looking to convince anyone of the egalitarian point of view. I'm looking for someone who is openly egalitarian - as you are - to engage with this point above.
Perhaps it is more a biblical and/or apostolic authority question than anything else?
If you want to engage with it, I would welcome your thoughts, if you don't want to, that is fine too :)
Thanks!
Greg,
ReplyDeleteWe are working up to it. Because of my egalitarian position I felt it important to solicit female engagement into the conversation. Silas, Danielle and I are also planning a full response.
Friends,
ReplyDeleteI was working through this passage a few years ago and actually e-mailed Mr. Gary Yamasaki over the summer about it. He responded almost overnight and with some GREAT points. I've included it below, along with a short comment at the bottom. Enjoy.
...And, it's too long, so I'm going to break it up into 2 comments!
This was Gary's e-mail to me:
Regarding the 1 Tim 2 passage, I should note there is a whole book that works through all the exegetical issues surrounding this passage; it is called I Suffer Not a Woman (the KJV wording of 1 Tim 2:12) by Richard Clark Kroeger and Catherine Clark Kroeger (Catherine gives a shorter treatment of the issues in one chapter of Women, Authority and the Bible, Alvera Mickelsen, ed.)
I don't have either of these books in front of me right now, but here is what I can remember:
- In the Greco-Roman world, there was a belief that the goddess Isis claimed to be the "first cause," in other words, the creator (the one who caused the world to come into existence). This is significant because it means there was a belief that "female" preceded "male" at the beginning of time. And if this belief managed to make its way into the early church, and distort the early church's theology, then there could have been a distorted understanding of the creation story, with "Eve" preceding "Adam."
- It is not certain that this "Isis" factor actually did cause such a heresy to arise in the early church, but (if I remember the Kroeger's work accurately) the belief that Eve preceded Adam does appear in gnostic writings.
- However, it is not clear exactly when gnosticism first came into existence; it is possible that it wasn't until after 1 Timothy was written, and if that is indeed the case, then what we see in 1 Tim 2 definitely would not be addressing this gnostic heresy. Also, even if gnosticism did come into existence before 1 Timothy was written, it is not clear whether it would have reached Ephesus by the time this letter was written (gnosticism having originated in Egypt). (And then, there is the whole other issue of when 1 Timothy was written. It is one of the letters about which many scholars doubt actual Pauline authorship, seeing it as a 2nd century document...which makes it much more likely that a gnostic heresy is being addressed...but it would also mean that it was not Paul writing "I do not permit a woman......")
- Regarding the actual content of these verses, there are 2 things that Paul does not permit a woman to do: 1) teach (which is clear), and 2) "have authority over a man," and this is anything but clear. The Gk word here is authentein. Unfortunately, this is a very rare word. It is not found anywhere else in the NT...in fact, it is not found in any Gk literature of the first century, or of the centuries before or after the first; therefore, it is impossible to know with any degree of certainty how this verb was understood in the first century. If you look at Gk literature centuries later, you can find the sense of "have authority over." However, Catherine (being a classicist) found in ancient Gk lexicons (I believe they date from the Renaissance period, but record meanings from antiquity) the sense of "being the originator of" (the related English word "author" has this sense). Note what happens when this meaning is plugged into 1 Tim 2:12: "I do not permit a woman to teach or claim to be the originator of man." Could this possibly be in response to some women in the church at Ephesus who had been taken in by the heresy mentioned above, that instead of Adam being there first and Eve being made from a rib taken from Adam, it was rather Eve was there first, and Adam was made from her (making her the originator of Adam)?
- With that in mind, now read the following verse 13: "For it was Adam who was created first, then Eve." This would be a perfect follow up, if Paul was indeed addressing women who were claiming that Eve was there first, and Adam was made from her. Also, would arguing that Adam was created first function at all to support an exhortation that women should not have authority over men (the traditional interpretation of this passage)?
ReplyDeleteOne last thing on the interpretation of 1 Tim 2:12 as a prohibition against women teaching men. In Acts 18:26, Luke reports how Priscilla and Aquila observe that Apollos has a deficiency in his theology, and so they take him aside, and teach him the truth; therefore, we have an example of a woman teaching a man...and this is happening in Ephesus, the very city to which Paul sends the letter of 1 Timothy! Would Paul have objected to what Priscilla is doing here? Well, Paul mentions Priscilla a number of times in his letters, and it is always with admiration, and never rebuke.
I suppose someone could argue that while both Aquila and Priscilla are mentioned here, it was really Aquila who was doing the teaching, and Priscilla was just giving support (like a pastor's wife). However, it's important to note that when this married couple is mentioned, Priscilla is mentioned first. In fact, in the 5 times this couple is mentioned in the NT, Priscilla (sometimes referred to as "Prisca") is noted first in 4 of those 5. This is very unusually for the first century. It is even more unusual than noting a wife and then a husband in today's society (how often would you anticipate you and your husband being referred to as "Mrs. and Mr. Nickerson"?) I suspect the reason why Priscilla is mentioned first is because she is actually the more prominent leader of the two.
...
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ReplyDeleteNow, on to your other question, why the role of elder seems to be ascribed to men only. I have not seen any research on this question, but I do have a theory. First, despite all that I've said in my 2 emails, it it probable that the vast majority of leaders in the early church were men; women would have been very much in the minority (although prominent enough to prompt a Roman opponent to refer to Christianity as a "women's movement"). Actually, when you think of how patriarchal the cultures of the first century were, it is noteworthy that women made up a significant portion of the leadership of the early church. There is another factor that makes it even more noteworthy. Thinking of the early church during its first few decades (as reflected in the NT documents), it appears that most of the leaders come out of a Jewish background. Further, in Jewish culture, generally only boys were trained in the Torah. And when it came to choosing leaders for the various churches around the Med. world, it is highly likely that it would be people with grounding in the Scriptures (the Torah) that would be chosen, and that means "men" (which makes it all the more amazing that any women at all were chosen for leadership positions, let alone the fact that there seems to be a significant number of them!) And it could be that the passages addressing the qualifications of elders seem to presuppose the elders will be men simply because the vast majority of those being chosen to be elders were men. But I think it is important to note that the instructions regarding elders simply presuppose elders will be men, but do not address the issue of whether or not an elder must be a man, as opposed to a women.
--Back to Sarah:
Given that "Paul" is writing to Timothy who is in Ephesus, which was known for the Artemision and the worship of the goddess Artemis, it is definitely plausible that such a heresy (one of the first points in the e-mail above) centered on female deity would be something that the church had to deal with--especially if the church included a fair amount people who used to be entrenched in the worship of the Goddess--it would make sense that they would find the gnostic heresy believable.
Sorry it was so long! Haha. A total blog take-over.
k so what you're saying is the the Prohibition of women is situational, and contextual to a certain time frame.So what happens if this situation happened again? If people who side on the side of egalitarian argue that it was for a certain time, would the doctrine allow for it again If this argument is correct, what says is says Paul stopped when from teaching for season because it was the wisest action of time. Does an Egaltariain view allow for us to make such a choice as Paul did? If it was Okay for Paul to do if for a time, is it okay for Us to do it for a time? Under what circumstances. If Paul did for a certain time and place are we allowed and under what circumstances? if the prohibition of women teaching was allowed because it asscoicated with female deity of other faiths, is okay for us to do that should our culture get to the same point? Are we as culture at the level they were then? Let's be honest becoming the divine feminie sells more books at chapters than rob bell or John Piper ever did What does that say about our culture? I think this deserves further discussion, if Paul thought it wise for a certain and place, will the Egalitarianism doctrine allow for this? Should we allow for it? Is ita good idea? If Paul was willing and we are not what does that say about our hearts? Are me more about the right to preach or the gospel? If we're not should we change? What do we change? When how and why? I think if we're going to argue for this we need to develop it from a justification for women to preach to when its okay to and when okay not to. just saying
ReplyDeleteI think that egalitarianism presents an ideal of freedom and equality, that is rooted in the Biblical vision of renewal and wholeness. I think you are right that it is absolutely possible and required of us in a variety of settings and ways to submit to realities that are less than ideal. We submit for the sake of others and community, to minimize barriers and conflict, in order that we might all experience and move toward experiencing more of God's grace.
ReplyDeleteWhen we are faced with a choice between more freedom or less freedom I believe that it is those who would limit freedom that bear the burden of proof rather than the other way round. Furthermore, those of us who are most privileged (white men) and who face losing our privileged powerful position, are also those who ought to be most careful in analysing our hearts...
I am far from convinced that your speculative thoughts on the similarities rather than differences of ancient female cults to modern culture warrant a contemporary complementary position. Furthermore, even with some further elaboration it would be an entirely novel rational for complementarianism. I certainly have never heard anyone attempt justification of the position using this rationale. In a novel approach to a defending a conservative opinion the question of predetermined positions becomes an issue. To what degree does one use arbitrary rhetorical device to defend or argue for a particular position? Or to what degree is a position a legitimate conclusion to a very real and open inquiry pursued using a consistent and rational method? What are the various presupositions (like mine regarding freedom) why are they held and can them be adequately explained?
=) well argued. And I am not convinced it has reached that level as well. But it is something to consider What if it did? We're not that different than they were 2,000 years ago, maybe a little fatter and taller.
ReplyDelete